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Hey, everybody.
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How you doing?
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This is Jim Grisanzio from Java Developer Relations.
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And we are here for a chat on Duke’s Corner.
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This is where we have conversations with Java developers around the world to see
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what’s going on out there.
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And tonight, I’m here with Mary Grygleski from Chicago.
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Mary is a Java champion, developer advocate.
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And hey, welcome.
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Welcome to the program.
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Thank you.
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Thank you so much, Jim.
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This is exciting.
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I’m looking forward to this conversation and all excited already.
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Yeah, it’s really cool.
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We’ve been sort of iterating a little bit on Twitter, trying to figure out a good time when we can chat.
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And this worked out.
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It’s really great.
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And I’ve been sort of following your work at various conferences and stuff.
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We have a lot of mutual friends.
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And so I wanted to hook up and talk.
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You know, these conversations, we talk about technology, Java, obviously.
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We talk a little bit about the community and maybe a little bit about you, these kinds of things.
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And we just kind of see where it goes.
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Yeah.
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Tell me a little bit about yourself.
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How’d you get involved with Java?
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With Java?
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Okay.
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So I’m going to start.
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Okay.
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kind of go back in time a little bit,
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but currently I’m a developer advocate with Datastacks,
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this company.
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And so my focus has been more on to database these days because companies about
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open source,
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but it’s kind of they have their managed cloud.
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Apache Cassandra,
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just to mention quickly,
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but I actually joined and working on more event streaming on their streaming
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platform than like a year and a half ago or so.
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And so,
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yeah,
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anyway,
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if I kind of go back in time to,
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I have been a developer advocate for about five years now.
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I was at IBM and also because of my Java connection.
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But I have to kind of get back a bit in time since you asked about how did I get started.
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So when I graduated many eons ago,
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and at the time,
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actually,
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internet was about to be born,
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I should say,
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right?
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It kind of tells you how old I am.
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But anyway.
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Me too.
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I’m actually older.
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Oh, good.
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The thing is,
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though,
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I realize,
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you know,
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now looking back in time,
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it was really at a very interesting point in time in which Internet was about to be
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born and relational database also just,
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you know,
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was at its early stage,
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too.
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But so, yeah.
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So in my case, too, was interesting.
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My very first job, I actually did some Fortran work.
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It was kind of like an endpoint in kind of popularity of Fortran back then.
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But my first job was Fortran, including other things, too.
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So kind of even actually predecessor of the relational database and kind of old
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kind of database called Info.
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I don’t think anybody ever knew it anymore,
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but I worked on it for a few months and then basically the company decided to get
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into working with Oracle database.
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And people were excited.
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I remember my boss back then was also unusual,
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was a lady boss,
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very nice lady,
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encouraging all the young people.
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But I was about the only one or only two young people in this IT team at a chemical plant,
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believe it or not.
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So, yeah, but she was paying attention and I got to learn Oracle.
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That was great.
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Then I was also switching into doing more C and Unix.
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And so SunOS, too, was one of the operating system.
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But then eventually, too, I kind of got out and then worked for other companies.
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And then for about,
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I’d say,
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eight or nine years,
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I was more on Unix and C,
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and during which two,
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which I actually talked with you,
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Jim,
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too,
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before this session,
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was that I joined as a consultant,
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a contractor,
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doing testing and consulting work for Sun Microsystems back then.
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Yeah, that’s my old family.
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Right.
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Yeah, that’s why.
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So this particular team is more with ISV, they said, a software vendor, right?
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And so more like partner ecosystem kind of group.
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So I actually got hired because they had to port the Solaris,
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or actually I should say SMTP,
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Mail Transfer Gateway,
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so the email system.
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So very specific module needed kind of porting into onto like Solaris or SunOS and
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then on Solaris or actually I should say SunOS on Spark and eventually Solaris and
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then Solaris to i86 architecture.
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So more PC architecture.
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During which, you know, I kind of transitioned into that.
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But also, too, you know, things were changing.
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And then I finished that contract.
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Then I moved on and did some work for Sybase.
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Started doing, actually joining Sybase, I should say, the database company.
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But then I actually was joining from PowerBuilder, too.
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So doing all those work.
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And then they wanted to actually launch the PowerBuilder component into J2EE server back then.
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predecessor of the Jakarta EE now.
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And so anyway, so that’s when I kind of got into Java too, about year 2000.
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And then, you know, family changes in 2004.
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So I moved to Chicago.
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But because Chicago is more of an application environment versus product development.
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So I got into working for some of the big companies like,
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you know,
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Mercantile Exchange,
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doing financial exchanges work.
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application level, but that gave me a very good sense.
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So that’s when I kind of started working with Java was back then,
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really into the enterprise,
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so to speak,
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my enterprise development side of things,
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IT shops.
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And then I kind of also worked for some web development,
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smaller firms at the time was Fullstack and Spring came out of these things.
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So I kind of got kind of mixed into it, got into that mix, you know what
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And everywhere I go, seems like people are like, oh, Java developers.
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And that’s how I was kind of venturing,
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you know,
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kind of in that point of,
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you know,
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in the ocean,
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kind of floating from here to there.
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And then eventually found my way to becoming a developer advocate.
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It was very funny, too.
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I have to also mention, because I was doing a job.
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Well, actually, I should say it was at a good point of my life.
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I thought, you know, I wanted to.
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You know, I found out something was missing.
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So missing in terms of, you know, I like doing engineering work, but I want more than that.
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And then there was also a user group that kind of popped up, I think, in the 2010s.
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So it was around that time, maybe 2013, 14, I started going to the Java users group in Chicago.
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And then I really loved it so much.
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I was doing so much.
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So then at the time, Freddie Kimme was running Chicago Java users group.
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And then he asked me, oh, can you help?
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And so that’s how I kind of got started getting involved.
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And because of that,
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too,
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it led me to doing advocacy work,
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right,
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and day job,
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which I really love a lot.
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So that’s how I kind of got to where I am now.
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So I hope that answer is a long-finding answer.
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That’s really cool.
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I’m glad you got a chance to touch Solaris or at the time SunOS,
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which predates Solaris and eventually Solaris.
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Actually, I was at Sun for a long time.
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I was the open Solaris community manager.
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And so when we finally open sourced Solaris.
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And it was a great project.
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But at that time,
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I knew a lot of Java people because I was in marketing at the time,
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actually,
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before Solaris.
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So I knew I was I did a lot of Java marketing,
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you know,
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Java,
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you know,
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PR and marketing,
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worked with the executives a lot.
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So that was really cool.
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And then eventually I moved over to Solaris Community Development,
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which was actually on the kernel team in engineering.
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So I was around kernel developers, which is a scary situation for me a lot.
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And these are really smart guys, you know.
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But yeah, it was really cool.
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And I was in San Francisco and Silicon Valley.
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So that’s really cool that you got a little bit of overlap there.
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Yeah.
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So did you did you get into development and engineering because you wanted to when
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you were a little kid or did you kind of fall into it later on?
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What did you go to school for?
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You know, interestingly, well, OK, so I majored or graduated.
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My bachelor’s degree is in math and computer science.
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So as you can imagine,
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right,
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I mentioned already the time,
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I won’t tell you exactly the timeframe,
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but as you can see,
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like early 90s,
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kind of late 80s.
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So it was like, you know, internet was at the cusp of being born.
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Database just started, relational database kind of became the thing.
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So yeah, so I, yeah, okay, so that’s when I started working.
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But I have kind of to admit to is that as a kid,
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I grew up with a brother who was kind of not very nice at the time,
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super smart,
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but later diagnosed as having autism.
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But now I can understand why he’s very smart in one thing and the other things deficient.
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But anyway, I was kind of being influenced by him, too.
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He’s very smart, but he’s more of a networking kind of guy.
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He knows everything.
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So I still ask him about stuff.
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He’s just super smart in that.
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But anyway, because of him being so annoying, I didn’t actually want to be.
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And in fact, I was more thinking of wanting to be an astronaut.
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And I think I’ve told some friends too.
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I really wanted to be an astronaut.
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I was fascinated as a kid.
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It’s like, oh, astronaut, how nice.
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And, you know, play with my brother.
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We went on space mission.
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So that was what I was thinking.
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But then the thing is,
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though,
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as you’re growing older and then you come and then for me,
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I came to the US for college and so started to see what’s out there and realize,
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oh,
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that’s not actually wouldn’t be very smart move,
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too,
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because,
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you know,
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you’re children,
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you kind of aspire doing something.
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But in reality, it’s a different story.
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And then at the time, because of, you know, computers becoming more prevalent and software.
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So I think it’s just interesting how I kind of started doing computers.
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And the thing is,
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I think it kind of convinced me was,
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you know,
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even initially I thought I would be an exercise physiologist because I was active
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in sports.
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I thought I could do something with science and with sports.
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And also partly because I didn’t want to do computers because of my brother.
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I felt like, OK,
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I’m not going to do it because he annoyed me too much.
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I don’t like it.
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And so anyway,
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but ended up though,
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I was fascinated when I got to college and then at the time was using those IBM
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terminals for like student information systems.
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I remember I was like, oh, this is cool.
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And how does it work, you know?
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So I think that kind of piqued my interest and I eventually switched my major or
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kind of more like declare my major in sophomore year because for freshman year,
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I took some introductory,
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you know,
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computer 101 course and all that.
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And so I thought,
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This is something I can do.
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And I’m always good in math, too.
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So I thought I can do it.
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So that’s when I switched to doing computer science and math.
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So, yeah.
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Interesting.
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Well,
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the math background,
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actually the math interests,
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I mean,
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obviously the astronaut stuff and the exercise physiology.
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I mean, so you certainly like technical things.
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I mean,
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so like solving problems and figuring out hard things and technical things,
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that comes naturally to you?
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Or did you have to really, really work at it?
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yeah i’d say you know i wouldn’t call myself like um you know super smart like my
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brother who just knew exactly was just kind of born with that but for me i feel i’m
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always very curious i think that really helps too if you’re curious and that’s when
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it kind of propels you to look for answers for things that you don’t understand and
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i find myself i’m kind of super patient too when it comes to solving problem i
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really persevere maybe it’s a bit stubborn if i can describe it so
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Yeah, I think with that is essential too for doing engineering types of work, I think.
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Don’t need to be super smart, but you really definitely have that desire to want to solve problems.
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Yes, in particular, if you want to solve problems and understand how things work.
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I think that’s what kind of has helped me all this time.
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Interesting.
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So then one of the things about tech is that,
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you know,
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actually I always liked is that it moves very quickly and it changes.
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Yes.
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Right.
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So like when you learned in school up to now, things have changed a lot.
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So, you know, how do you keep up with things?
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How do you not only specifically with Java,
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we’ll talk about Java in a second,
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but in terms of just programming and tech and just the evolution of technology.
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of the whole field.
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I mean,
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things move so very quickly and you’re in the middle of it in terms of being a developer,
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a developer advocate.
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How do you keep up with things?
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Oh, totally.
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I,
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in fact,
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didn’t even talk about,
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but now talk about it now is that I am actually,
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I’m at my current company and I got hired to do event streaming and streaming Pulsar,
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you know,
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message broker,
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which I really like to,
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that’s my kind of area of interest,
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distributed systems.
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But about five months ago, like company CEO said, everybody’s turned to doing generative.
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AI.
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So I was like, yeah, so yeah, here it is.
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And that was my challenge.
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I’m like, okay, how do I kind of translate into that?
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And it was a big push.
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And as developer advocate, I had to come up immediately, right?
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Like, how do I talk about it?
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So I remember myself felt like going back to college in some sense, because
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I really,
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I kind of took out some books and kind of online resources and started studying
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like what is AI,
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even though I had done some like AI,
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like collaborative talks with another person,
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kind of,
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I had a little bit of background also back at IBM too,
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was also helping out with an AI meetup group.
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So not like I was completely new, but at least I’ve known something, but
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thing is though with generative ai is also different too so basically too yes i had
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to start studying like you know i really spent like two weekends three weekends
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trying to hurry up and start studying and it because before that it was just more
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like okay marketing things came out and oh this jenny i think is interesting jet
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chat gpt so i started reading up on it but not very more superficial but now i have
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to advocate then i better go deeper
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So and of course, there’s like tons of information to it, too.
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And so how do I start?
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Oh, my gosh, stretching my head.
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And but the thing is, I find is just dive in.
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Right.
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And just kind of, you know, going into it from the perspective of how I’m familiar with computers.
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And, you know, and it’s like I have to start had to start from somewhere.
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So I think I I sort of like, you know, also, too, because my company does marketing.
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more Cassandra on the cloud.
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And so that’s when they kind of add in vector search, all of these things.
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And that’s actually where I realized,
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oh,
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this is great stuff because vector search,
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similarity searches very much depends on math theory behind the scenes,
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right?
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All the algorithms,
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how do you do multidimensional data and basically translate it into representations,
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you know,
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as vector data type.
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So that was really good.
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I caught on to that.
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And also, you know, there are
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some great colleagues too that was helping out and all that.
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So I think because of this attitude of me,
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like,
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let me embrace it,
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you know,
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let me not run away from it.
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So what?
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You know, I’m like a beginner now.
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So what?
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I don’t care.
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I’m just going to learn something.
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Nothing will be wasted.
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I think I always carry with me that thinking is that
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You can look at me like I’m stupid.
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Fine.
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I don’t care.
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I’m learning something, you know.
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And eventually I will get caught on.
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So I think it’s just with that attitude.
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And also, too, part of it, of course, is my job as developer advocate.
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I have to do something.
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So it’s sort of a pressure to coming at me to doing it.
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So I think that’s how I kind of like
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have been able to make that transition over too.
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But I realize it’s great because it’s more enriching.
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And also too, I’m now able to also bring in the event streaming.
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How does it,
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how can I bring the two kind of interdisciplinary kind of approach to solving
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problems in the gen AI kind of space?
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So yeah, so that’s an example of how I got transitioned.
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That’s really cool you say that because actually I worked for an engineering
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manager actually in Solaris.
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And she had a very similar mindset to you, actually.
(00:15:14):
She was an engineer and she moved into management and she managed our team.
(00:15:17):
And she was the best engineering manager in Solaris, full stop.
(00:15:22):
Everyone knew her.
(00:15:23):
She was just incredible because she did embrace learning new things just again with
(00:15:28):
that mindset of just learning something new,
(00:15:30):
even though she was very senior and she had all these years of experience.
(00:15:34):
She worked with Gosling when she was young, you know, so I mean, she…
(00:15:37):
She goes way back and she knew him very, very well.
(00:15:40):
But when she learned something new,
(00:15:41):
she was like a little kid just starting over,
(00:15:44):
you know,
(00:15:44):
and just I’m just going to learn this from step one,
(00:15:46):
two and three.
(00:15:47):
And that for an adult sometimes can be very difficult, you know, just as an emotional thing, you know.
(00:15:52):
Sure.
(00:15:53):
So I always I always like to ask and, you know, to get that perspective.
(00:15:56):
So that was very interesting.
(00:15:58):
Let’s talk about the community a little bit now.
(00:15:59):
You were Java champion and you also mentioned that you got involved in the user group in Chicago.
(00:16:07):
So talk a little bit about that.
(00:16:08):
But you’re also going to conferences and you’re meeting people there all over the world.
(00:16:13):
And a lot of these conferences have their own cultures.
(00:16:16):
Because they’ve been around for a while and they’re in different countries,
(00:16:19):
so you have different language issues and cultural issues.
(00:16:23):
You’ve got stuff in Europe and Brazil and the United States and Japan and India and all this stuff.
(00:16:28):
They’re all different.
(00:16:29):
So these are communities within communities within communities.
(00:16:33):
So talk about your community experience for a bit.
(00:16:36):
Sure, sure.
(00:16:37):
Yeah.
(00:16:37):
So as I mentioned earlier,
(00:16:39):
when you asked how I got into DevRel,
(00:16:41):
so it’s all because of,
(00:16:43):
I have to say,
(00:16:43):
I attribute that to being a member first,
(00:16:46):
you know,
(00:16:46):
as a Java users group and in Chicago,
(00:16:49):
because that’s where I started going to Java users group that was in Chicago.
(00:16:54):
So, yes, I think to me, I feel it’s.
(00:16:57):
You know, despite the fact that a lot of times we said, oh, engineers, and it is very true, too.
(00:17:02):
I mean,
(00:17:03):
this profession tends to attract people who have more of an introvert tendency,
(00:17:08):
you know,
(00:17:09):
not everybody.
(00:17:10):
But the thing is, though, it’s kind of funny.
(00:17:12):
We, you know, to me, I find the world like scary.
(00:17:14):
maybe tends to like to label people black or white, right?
(00:17:18):
Either you’re introvert or you’re not.
(00:17:20):
But in reality, there’s kind of a mixture.
(00:17:23):
I mean,
(00:17:23):
even myself,
(00:17:24):
I think in some,
(00:17:25):
to a certain extent,
(00:17:26):
I’m very introvert,
(00:17:27):
but yet at the same time,
(00:17:28):
I also have that extrovert side of me.
(00:17:31):
So I’m a mixture of two.
(00:17:33):
And in fact,
(00:17:33):
before,
(00:17:34):
because I was working in an environment in which the culture wasn’t,
(00:17:38):
tends to be not very open,
(00:17:40):
I’d say,
(00:17:40):
you know,
(00:17:40):
people are tend to be
(00:17:42):
I’d say I don’t like to use the word shy,
(00:17:44):
but in some ways it’s kind of shy too,
(00:17:47):
meaning you don’t like to be out in the public.
(00:17:50):
So I was never attracted to talking in the public.
(00:17:53):
And in fact, you asked too about how did I become like speaking in conferences.
(00:17:57):
Even just 10 years ago, I wouldn’t have thought I would do that because-
(00:18:01):
Back then,
(00:18:01):
too,
(00:18:01):
I was still kind of not very sure because,
(00:18:04):
you know,
(00:18:04):
it’s basically your social environment is not encouraging you to do that.
(00:18:08):
But I think that’s where my frustration was coming from,
(00:18:11):
too,
(00:18:12):
as an engineer,
(00:18:12):
because I and I slowly am realizing I have this extrovert side of me that I
(00:18:18):
actually like to come out and talk and not so much.
(00:18:21):
Well, how can I say?
(00:18:21):
Also, I have to bring up the fact that I grew up singing in a choir.
(00:18:25):
So even though not solo singing, but it was kind of a choir singing and I enjoy that.
(00:18:30):
Right.
(00:18:30):
And so.
(00:18:31):
It’s that external side of you.
(00:18:33):
I think it’s just human beings are very intricate.
(00:18:35):
We have some part of us like to be more extrovert.
(00:18:38):
In fact, I have also heard of people who are actors.
(00:18:40):
They are actually introvert, believe it or not.
(00:18:43):
I probably definitely have that.
(00:18:45):
Right.
(00:18:45):
So this extrovert side, you like to talk.
(00:18:47):
It’s just a very natural things.
(00:18:49):
I think that I can’t even explain.
(00:18:51):
I do like to interact with people a lot.
(00:18:53):
And anyway,
(00:18:54):
so going back to this community,
(00:18:56):
I think to me,
(00:18:57):
right,
(00:18:57):
I’m finding that despite the fact that,
(00:19:00):
again,
(00:19:00):
you know,
(00:19:00):
people all maybe have a tendency of being introverts.
(00:19:04):
The fact is that we actually all like to be, you know, to belong, so to speak, to some community.
(00:19:10):
Right.
(00:19:10):
i think that’s the thing that’s very innate innate within us even if you are a lone
(00:19:16):
loner too i would think most of the even lonely loners too you know wouldn’t mind
(00:19:20):
being in the community i think it’s just very natural in our beings i like that so
(00:19:25):
anyway same
(00:19:26):
Same thing, right?
(00:19:27):
Likewise, we’re in a technology type of community and especially so.
(00:19:32):
I think we need to be more coming together as a community and talk about solutions
(00:19:36):
because there’s too many problems to solve,
(00:19:39):
too many ways to solve problems.
(00:19:40):
And we want to kind of discover the best way
(00:19:43):
And there’s really, there’s just too many things to solve, I find.
(00:19:47):
And people get encouraged,
(00:19:48):
as I’m seeing too,
(00:19:50):
that people actually have talked to me,
(00:19:51):
like I’m still running Chicago Java Users Group.
(00:19:54):
And now we’re slowly going back to in-person,
(00:19:56):
not every time,
(00:19:57):
but sometimes we do virtual,
(00:19:59):
sometimes in-person.
(00:20:00):
But I’ve had people who come up to me and said, oh, wow, I didn’t know you guys are doing this.
(00:20:05):
And this is so nice to be able to talk to with people, eat pizza and drink beer or something.
(00:20:10):
So yeah, so I think…
(00:20:11):
That’s what I think it is,
(00:20:13):
is that you bring together a community and it’s very encouraging about sharing and
(00:20:18):
no judgment,
(00:20:18):
like a judgment-free zone.
(00:20:20):
I think that’s the thing that kills people is if you have someone who thinks they
(00:20:23):
are better than some other people,
(00:20:25):
then it will really turn people away.
(00:20:27):
But then if you kind of look at everybody and
(00:20:29):
It should be true, too, is that we are all kind of the same.
(00:20:32):
We’re here to learn.
(00:20:33):
You may be experiencing something better than other things.
(00:20:36):
But everybody, essentially, you have these strengths.
(00:20:39):
And you can share what you know.
(00:20:41):
And it’s a very safe environment.
(00:20:43):
So then you’re not being judged.
(00:20:44):
And you’re being encouraged.
(00:20:46):
And,
(00:20:47):
you know,
(00:20:47):
you find that people will find that it’s very encouraging to be able to share,
(00:20:51):
I think,
(00:20:52):
you know,
(00:20:52):
so so that’s that’s how I look at it.
(00:20:54):
And I really enjoy doing community work because of that,
(00:20:57):
even though,
(00:20:58):
yes,
(00:20:58):
volunteering,
(00:20:59):
but I really enjoy it so much.
(00:21:00):
So then I mix it my day job as well, although day job has its own challenge, too.
(00:21:05):
I won’t talk about it here, but yeah, so.
(00:21:09):
It’s interesting you mentioned that it’s innate.
(00:21:12):
Actually, I’ve been doing community development work for a long time, for over 20 years.
(00:21:17):
And one of the presentations I do is I have a presentation about how to build a community.
(00:21:24):
This is basically for DevRel people, for community managers.
(00:21:27):
Like if your company comes to you and says,
(00:21:29):
hey,
(00:21:30):
we need to build a community around this project,
(00:21:33):
an open source community or a user community or something like that.
(00:21:36):
And you don’t know what to do, let’s say.
(00:21:38):
So I have a presentation for the walking people through step by step what to do.
(00:21:41):
And the very first thing I talk about is this innate,
(00:21:44):
I actually use that word,
(00:21:45):
this innate thing inside of all humans to connect.
(00:21:49):
Yes.
(00:21:49):
You know, it’s just, it’s everywhere.
(00:21:51):
You pick up any book in history, any book on anthropology, any book on biology, basically.
(00:21:55):
Right.
(00:21:56):
Any book on science.
(00:21:57):
You see humans have to come together to solve problems.
(00:22:02):
Otherwise, we would not have evolved.
(00:22:03):
We would not have survived.
(00:22:05):
Totally.
(00:22:06):
From our ancestors to what we are now.
(00:22:09):
And we are a big deal now.
(00:22:10):
There’s a lot of people around, right?
(00:22:12):
That’s right.
(00:22:14):
We are very, very successful.
(00:22:15):
So this concept of getting together is very, very important.
(00:22:19):
And physically getting together, physically together, right?
(00:22:22):
Yes, totally.
(00:22:23):
Absolutely.
(00:22:25):
So let’s job out with the Jug in Chicago.
(00:22:27):
I mean,
(00:22:28):
I assume you have technical sessions,
(00:22:29):
people come,
(00:22:30):
new people,
(00:22:31):
senior people,
(00:22:32):
new people mix,
(00:22:33):
and you have conversations and stuff.
(00:22:34):
Describe it a little bit for me.
(00:22:36):
So what’s the mix?
(00:22:37):
Are you focusing more on technical sessions or on users or developers?
(00:22:43):
What’s the mix there?
(00:22:44):
Sure, sure.
(00:22:45):
So I do have to say,
(00:22:46):
right,
(00:22:47):
as such,
(00:22:47):
you know,
(00:22:48):
being like part time on running jerk to I mean,
(00:22:51):
certainly,
(00:22:51):
I think,
(00:22:52):
ideally,
(00:22:52):
right,
(00:22:53):
we,
(00:22:54):
you know,
(00:22:54):
I would like to see even like pre COVID times,
(00:22:57):
you know,
(00:22:57):
we have had had more like maker session,
(00:23:01):
having hackathons,
(00:23:02):
for example,
(00:23:02):
those would be nice to,
(00:23:04):
however,
(00:23:04):
like post
(00:23:05):
During COVID and post-COVID, it’s just not possible.
(00:23:08):
And then people are not coming as much, which I’m not sure.
(00:23:11):
We’re still trying to figure out how to attract people to come to the meetups.
(00:23:16):
But I kind of have a sense of why,
(00:23:19):
you know,
(00:23:19):
the AI,
(00:23:20):
actually the AI community have stolen a lot of our attention.
(00:23:24):
I had stolen the spotlight, you know, these things.
(00:23:26):
And anyway, but I think it’s kind of affecting the Java users group too.
(00:23:30):
But anyway,
(00:23:31):
you know,
(00:23:31):
kind of like to answer your question,
(00:23:33):
I,
(00:23:34):
you know,
(00:23:35):
so at this point too,
(00:23:36):
we’ve been doing like once a month meetup and we used to do two times,
(00:23:39):
but it’s just harder now and just trying to find volunteers.
(00:23:43):
So at this point,
(00:23:44):
mostly too,
(00:23:45):
I definitely want to look at,
(00:23:47):
you know,
(00:23:47):
what’s the kind of topics we’re into.
(00:23:50):
So I like to also look at all the topics and I’ve done also a survey.
(00:23:54):
kind of list out all possible topics right there,
(00:23:56):
you know,
(00:23:57):
from like core Java,
(00:23:59):
you know,
(00:23:59):
system stuff all the way into frameworks.
(00:24:01):
And then now,
(00:24:02):
you know,
(00:24:03):
getting into AI and all these things just to get a feel of where people’s interests are.
(00:24:07):
And then based on that, I also wanted to
(00:24:10):
map it out so then there are speakers also coming to us and i want to also kind of
(00:24:14):
space it out so then it’s not two consecutive talks on performance for example and
(00:24:19):
we have a performance maybe another if really there’s another performance speakers
(00:24:23):
we space it out six months later for yes as an example but otherwise too yeah we
(00:24:28):
have all sorts of topics too and uh so so trying to like spread it out and also
(00:24:34):
because of there are fewer people now coming so
(00:24:37):
I can’t assume everybody’s expert or everybody is kind of beginner too.
(00:24:42):
I have to assume,
(00:24:42):
okay,
(00:24:43):
there are some beginners,
(00:24:44):
some students and all the way to a few,
(00:24:46):
maybe,
(00:24:47):
you know,
(00:24:47):
advanced kind of understanding.
(00:24:48):
But I’d say, you know, the extreme cases, right?
(00:24:51):
If you look at the experience level,
(00:24:53):
usually the curve is always around people with some experience or medium to
(00:24:58):
experience level versus like the kind of students or the very experienced.
(00:25:03):
So again, you know, it’s just,
(00:25:05):
Sometimes, too, depends on the speaker who can come and speak.
(00:25:08):
So I, you know, I like to just try to kind of spread it out.
(00:25:12):
So then it’s kind of get an even mix of the topic kind of categories of talks.
(00:25:17):
And that’s what I’ve been able to do, you know, the past few years since COVID, basically.
(00:25:23):
Right, right.
(00:25:24):
Yeah, it’s not very easy.
(00:25:26):
Yeah, well, running a user group even under normal times is hard.
(00:25:30):
In open slash user groups, I’ve worked the Tokyo Linux user group up in Tokyo.
(00:25:37):
I’m in Osaka, but I used to live up in Tokyo.
(00:25:40):
And getting meetings together and getting speakers even under normal times is challenging, you know.
(00:25:47):
So, all right, so let’s talk about Java.
(00:25:50):
It seems like at the user group,
(00:25:51):
obviously,
(00:25:52):
you have a mix of technologies depending on whatever the situation is.
(00:25:56):
And you’ve had this unique experience since you got involved in Java, really since the beginning.
(00:26:01):
So I wanted to hear if you had any thoughts on how it’s evolved over the years,
(00:26:06):
you know,
(00:26:07):
coming out,
(00:26:07):
I don’t know,
(00:26:09):
28 years,
(00:26:09):
27 years,
(00:26:09):
something like that.
(00:26:10):
I,
(00:26:10):
you know,
(00:26:11):
I just this,
(00:26:12):
when I have been to conferences in recent years,
(00:26:14):
I think it’s really cool that this is,
(00:26:16):
this is like a bunch of children will get around.
(00:26:18):
Some of these people are really, really young, you know, and it’s really amazing.
(00:26:21):
And then you’ll see somebody who’s really old too.
(00:26:24):
Yeah.
(00:26:25):
And so they mix, you know, it’s kind of cool.
(00:26:29):
And so what about Java is so attractive that it’s thriving all these years later?
(00:26:36):
Oh, sure.
(00:26:37):
Yes.
(00:26:37):
Yes.
(00:26:38):
I think because also, I mean, the world is still powered.
(00:26:41):
A lot of enterprise systems in production are in fact,
(00:26:45):
Java underneath the hood and a lot of the cloud servers too.
(00:26:49):
So, you know, Java has proven itself like 28 years, 27, 28 years.
(00:26:55):
So it’s kind of well known,
(00:26:57):
you know,
(00:26:58):
being very robust and kind of like the,
(00:27:00):
you know,
(00:27:01):
kind of like powerful capabilities in there.
(00:27:04):
However,
(00:27:04):
I also see that the world tends to go towards things that are glamorous, so to speak, right?
(00:27:10):
So sort of like Java has been pushed, kind of not, it is very important, but it’s just, it’s there.
(00:27:17):
Maybe the word I kind of have heard, you know, the business people say is kind of becoming a commodity.
(00:27:23):
I hate to say that.
(00:27:24):
I don’t think it’s really commodity.
(00:27:26):
Well, look, I mean, you’re in Chicago.
(00:27:27):
That’s the land of the commodities.
(00:27:29):
Well, that’s right, too.
(00:27:30):
Yes.
(00:27:30):
Without that…
(00:27:31):
Without that, you know, without that, you know, nothing works.
(00:27:35):
Yeah, that’s right.
(00:27:36):
Literally nothing works.
(00:27:38):
You’re right.
(00:27:40):
In other words, it is important, but yet people just don’t kind of like glamorize it or something.
(00:27:46):
Right.
(00:27:47):
right?
(00:27:47):
I kind of like to look at it,
(00:27:49):
you know,
(00:27:49):
I like to use this analogy of us going to buy a house,
(00:27:52):
you know,
(00:27:52):
you want to walk into a house,
(00:27:54):
yeah,
(00:27:54):
all the aesthetics,
(00:27:55):
but what makes the house amazing is maybe underneath all the plumbing,
(00:27:59):
all the electricity,
(00:28:01):
everything,
(00:28:02):
all the infrastructure is very good.
(00:28:04):
So I think I look at it, Java is like that.
(00:28:06):
You feel safe, you know, in this, using this technology.
(00:28:10):
So, but then at the same time too, like the, you know, the world is going for the glamorous thing, but
(00:28:14):
But I think what will really win is really the things that sustain and in the long run.
(00:28:19):
So to me,
(00:28:21):
I find,
(00:28:21):
you know,
(00:28:22):
the thing is with Java being proven and,
(00:28:24):
you know,
(00:28:25):
all these things that despite people are laughing at it or kind of teasing it with
(00:28:29):
saying that,
(00:28:30):
oh,
(00:28:30):
is it dead?
(00:28:31):
No, it is long from being dead.
(00:28:33):
I mean, look at COBOL, you know, it is still running too.
(00:28:35):
So something that’s robust will last, you know, but it’s just so happened.
(00:28:39):
People don’t talk about it.
(00:28:40):
And then you asked about too,
(00:28:42):
yeah,
(00:28:42):
what your question was really about,
(00:28:44):
why would,
(00:28:44):
you know,
(00:28:44):
Java,
(00:28:45):
why is it able to sustain so long?
(00:28:47):
I think,
(00:28:47):
you know,
(00:28:48):
besides it being like technically sound and very capable,
(00:28:52):
I also think the community too has been very helpful.
(00:28:56):
I mean, having the whole Oracle Java program, right?
(00:28:59):
It is really,
(00:29:00):
if you think about it,
(00:29:01):
all of the Java users group is very independent,
(00:29:04):
yet,
(00:29:05):
you know,
(00:29:05):
we come together.
(00:29:06):
I think it’s also like the history, how it has been evolved, right?
(00:29:10):
All of the Java users group and you have Java champions.
(00:29:13):
I also think the program is also helpful because you’re recognizing people’s
(00:29:17):
contribution to it and also used to be Java 1,
(00:29:20):
right?
(00:29:21):
And so the Java 1…
(00:29:22):
also help to bring people together,
(00:29:24):
like all the community people talking about it and having a conference around it.
(00:29:29):
The seeds have been planted, right?
(00:29:31):
And people are still excited.
(00:29:32):
And, you know, I think really the community is helpful.
(00:29:35):
And also then with the JCP, the process, everything is kind of set up really nicely, too.
(00:29:40):
So I think that really is helping a lot to make it really sustainable.
(00:29:45):
so to speak because now you have people that are experts that are talking about it
(00:29:49):
and you know publishing blog articles there are talks and things like that that
(00:29:53):
people talk about it the more people talk about it you make it more sustained
(00:29:58):
sustainable i think in that case so yeah yeah there are many reasons too yeah so
(00:30:03):
Have you noticed the evolution?
(00:30:04):
You know,
(00:30:05):
like,
(00:30:05):
for instance,
(00:30:05):
when I learned C,
(00:30:07):
I was in the lab in the basement of Northeastern University in Boston with this
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massive CRT screen in front of me.
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It was just a command prompt.
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It was a spark machine, actually.
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And Solaris, running Solaris.
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And I just had a book in front of me.
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That’s a blank screen.
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That’s it, you know.
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Yeah.
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Now the tools are beautiful.
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The tools are very advanced.
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I mean,
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when the kids are learning programming now,
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they have so many more really,
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really innovative and intuitive tools to learn.
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I just had this blank screen.
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And for me, that was a disaster.
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I needed help.
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So things have evolved substantially from 25 years ago or so.
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Do you have any thoughts on that in terms of learning?
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The kids learn now versus how you learned when you were younger.
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Oh, yeah, totally.
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I mean, definitely, too.
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I’d say,
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you know,
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the current generation,
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maybe they are less kind of have a leaning,
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right,
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to start learning about Java.
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However,
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I shouldn’t say,
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it’s kind of,
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you know,
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not through experiment,
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but just looking at the way things are.
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And of course,
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now,
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right,
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you look at ecosystem like Python or JavaScript,
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all these being so popular,
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it’s because they are easy,
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right?
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You just kind of pick things up and go.
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However,
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People realize that if you want to do serious computing that can scale all of these concurrency,
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all of these difficult computing problems,
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you go to Java rather than some of these other easier to pick up type of languages.
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So I think, you know, on the other hand, I have to say we can’t deny the fact that
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You know if if you have an easy to use approach like a UI through is UI or any kind
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of things right to make it kind of simpler to use as a much more bigger appeal to
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people than it is with something very hard,
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you know,
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like You know,
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Java,
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I’d say,
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you know,
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it used to be more like it’s kind of comes from more of a C kind of background,
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right,
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you
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Every time you run something, you kind of like give this long command and then all the parameters.
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If you don’t specify the parameter, the flag correctly, then things won’t work.
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All these things are very strict rules.
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But the thing is,
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though,
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if you kind of think of an UI that just kind of people come up and it’s just a
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window that says,
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okay,
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tell me about this or a wizard to guide you through getting inputs from the user.
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Then even now,
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right,
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with Gen AI,
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it’s more like you just talk to it,
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but just make sure you ask the right thing,
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right?
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Sure.
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Kind of like that.
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You know, it’s much easier than you having to sit down.
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Oh, you know, now I got to run this and give like, you know, 100 parameters.
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Oh, by the time I type it, it’s all wrong.
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And you start from the beginning again.
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So although I do have to say Java has made a long, you know, kind of a
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It’s made a long way, but it’s much better than it used to be.
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But definitely, too, if you think of the user, the ease of use, I think is very important.
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If you can kind of design with that in mind to see how people can use it and
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remember things easily,
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that will be better.
(00:33:06):
But of course, again, you know, Gen AI seems to be beating us all now.
(00:33:09):
So…
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Yeah,
(00:33:10):
so,
(00:33:11):
but yeah,
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so that’s how I’m finding,
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you know,
(00:33:14):
just kind of have to start thinking of the ease of use.
(00:33:17):
And I think that’s something kind of very lacking in the Java kind of culture, right?
(00:33:22):
And, you know, I still remember when I first started learning too, it’s like, how do I do this?
(00:33:26):
And then you talk to some engineers, they are mumbling and they say, I’ll do this, do that.
(00:33:30):
They’re like,
(00:33:30):
What did you say?
(00:33:31):
You know, and you have to ask and then they think you’re stupid.
(00:33:34):
Right.
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So then you discourage people from asking.
(00:33:37):
And so that’s a kind of a no, no to, you know, like engineers used to be able to be to act like that.
(00:33:43):
But these days, no, if you act like that, people don’t pay attention to you.
(00:33:47):
You need to.
(00:33:47):
more easier.
(00:33:48):
You know, that’s why the kids are now being drawn to these easier to use stuff.
(00:33:53):
Oh, you ask them, pick up your phone, just scan the QR code like that.
(00:33:57):
So I feel,
(00:33:58):
you know,
(00:33:58):
the ecosystem,
(00:33:59):
Java ecosystem really need to start to respect more the importance of UI and
(00:34:05):
Otherwise too,
(00:34:07):
when I first started working at Sybase on the J2EE server team,
(00:34:11):
they were like,
(00:34:11):
oh,
(00:34:11):
nobody wants to do management console.
(00:34:13):
You work on that.
(00:34:14):
It was a swing implementation, which actually I was thankful for because Java was new to me.
(00:34:19):
I never got trained,
(00:34:21):
so that was a great way for me to learn Java,
(00:34:24):
object-oriented Java,
(00:34:26):
and that was through swing,
(00:34:27):
so that was really good too.
(00:34:29):
so anyway um to answer your question i think definitely we you know we need to look
(00:34:33):
at systems being able to market it and making it a business you have to think of
(00:34:39):
the whole thing as holistically not just the engineering piece and and the world is
(00:34:44):
moving more towards ease of use more of the ui thing but it you know again it needs
(00:34:49):
to have a balance is what i’m looking at so
(00:34:52):
Yeah, no, it’s interesting.
(00:34:54):
It’s come a long way and it might even be okay for me to start learning again.
(00:35:02):
It’s easy now.
(00:35:05):
Just chat GPT, right?
(00:35:06):
Pull up OpenAI.
(00:35:09):
Just ask.
(00:35:10):
Just talk to it.
(00:35:11):
Yeah, anyway.
(00:35:12):
Write this program to do X, Y, and Z. All of a sudden, I’m a developer.
(00:35:16):
That’s right.
(00:35:16):
Yeah.
(00:35:18):
All right, Mary.
(00:35:18):
Well, this has been a great conversation.
(00:35:20):
Did I leave anything out?
(00:35:22):
Is there anything that I haven’t asked you that I should have?
(00:35:24):
Do you have any last thoughts?
(00:35:26):
That’s awesome.
(00:35:27):
I can’t think of anything else.
(00:35:29):
I think it’s been a great conversation.
(00:35:32):
I really enjoy it.
(00:35:33):
So thank you.
(00:35:34):
Cool.
(00:35:34):
Where are you heading to?
(00:35:35):
You have any conferences coming up soon?
(00:35:38):
Not in December.
(00:35:39):
So for this year, 2023, I’m done now.
(00:35:42):
And I just actually came back from last week’s Linux Foundation.
(00:35:45):
We had the Cassandra and AI Dev Summit co-located.
(00:35:49):
So yeah, I’m done now for conferences.
(00:35:51):
Cool.
(00:35:52):
but I’ll be starting off like second week of January of 2024.
(00:35:56):
So yes.
(00:35:56):
And the Java champion, the J champions conference virtual too.
(00:36:02):
So yeah.
(00:36:02):
Right, right.
(00:36:03):
Exactly.
(00:36:03):
I saw that on list.
(00:36:04):
So that on list.
(00:36:05):
Cool.
(00:36:06):
All right, Mary.
(00:36:06):
Well, I do get to Chicago occasionally.
(00:36:08):
I have family there.
(00:36:09):
So if I do and if you’re around, I’ll give you a ping and we can have a cup of coffee.
(00:36:15):
And yeah, we can have you at Sea Jug as well.
(00:36:20):
Yeah.
(00:36:20):
Yeah.
(00:36:20):
I’ll come by the jug.
(00:36:22):
Absolutely.
(00:36:22):
Absolutely.
(00:36:23):
Because I have family that’s like 20 minutes away from you.
(00:36:26):
Yeah, exactly.
(00:36:27):
Yeah.
(00:36:28):
that’s for sure we’ll have to yeah have you join us too in that in addition to our
(00:36:32):
coffee so yeah absolutely absolutely cool all right mary we’ll talk to you soon
(00:36:36):
thank you jim yeah okay have a good night bye-bye thanks bye