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Hey, everybody.
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How are you doing?
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Welcome back.
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This is Jim Grisanzio from Java Developer Relations.
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Tonight, my special guest is Cesar Hernandez from Guatemala.
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Cesar, welcome.
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Welcome to Deuce Corner.
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Hello.
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Welcome, everybody.
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Hi, Jim.
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Thank you very much for the invitation.
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Happy to be here.
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It’s really cool to meet you.
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We’re meeting here for the first time, which is my usual state these days, but that’s really cool.
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But we’ve been actually speaking a little bit earlier and apparently,
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we’ve been crossing paths on some conferences in the past.
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So hopefully, in the future, we’ll be actually meet at a conference meet live, actually.
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So yeah, yeah, great.
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Looking forward to to to to meet you also with you and the rest of the community.
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Now the things are moving more forward to having
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uh, face-to-face events, uh, since, um, two years ago, um, everything ramped up and back again.
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So I’m looking forward.
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I am also ramping up again with conference next year.
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Oh, excellent.
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Excellent.
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Okay.
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So with this podcast,
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I just basically have conversations with developers and we talk about them as
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people don’t talk about the community.
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And obviously, we talk about the technology, Java.
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And so, yeah, let’s just start off with, you know, who you are, what you do.
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Sure.
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I am a senior software engineer for Tommy Drive.
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I have been in the Java ecosystem plus six.
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70 years or so.
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And in computer science, I have been since I recall I broke my dad’s computer back in the 90s.
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That was like my first interaction with computers.
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But I’m also an Apache committer for Apache Tomy,
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which is an open source project at Apache Surfer Foundation.
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I’m part of the PMC there.
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And as I like to call, I am an open source surfer.
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Sometimes I refer to in Spanish when someone asks me about
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Because open source nowadays,
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before AI kicked in last year,
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open source was starting to gain a lot of attention from different angles.
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So I always present myself as a software engineer who like to first learn and then
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share with the community,
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which I think is part of the open source ecosystem too.
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Yeah, exactly.
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Okay.
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There’s a lot to talk about here now with that opening.
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Thank you for that.
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So I want to start off with your father’s computer.
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How did you blow it up?
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That was an interesting one.
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I recall I was like maybe seven years old or something.
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And I recall my dad just bringing that those already old computers that I don’t know the…
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the age range of your audience.
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But I remember that he put it on the living room next to the TV.
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So I don’t know why he put it exactly in that position, but he put it there next to the TV.
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And I recall that I asked him, what is that?
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And he told me, it’s a computer.
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This is how you insert the 3.5 floppy disk.
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And you’re going to see this terminal.
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And eventually, we will figure out.
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Two days later,
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when he came back,
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I was really,
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really nervous because I started touching it around and the computer didn’t boot at all.
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So I did something.
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I don’t exactly recall what I did,
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but the funny part is that in less than 72 hours,
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I already broke the machine.
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And that was when my father said, okay, we need to take you into some computer lessons.
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So around eight years old,
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I started to receive DOS courses in the city just to make sure my dad’s computer
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wasn’t broken again.
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But since then, I have always been intrigued by, you know,
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reading manuals trying to understand how things works from technology perspective
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and that curiosity i always say that the curiosity comes before the intelligence
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because if you don’t have the curiosity you will you you won’t go that step forward
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that may maybe and most probably will take you to a couple of failures like my case
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with my dad’s computer but eventually uh you you will get there that’s what i would
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like to say to you to my students too when i when i was teaching a university but
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Yeah, that’s the story of my first interaction with computers back in the days.
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Oh, that was cool.
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Oh, so you were also a teacher.
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Oh, we got so much to talk about here.
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So yeah, I think it’s really cool.
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I mean,
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you had this incident when you were a kid,
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you know,
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you broke it somehow,
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you don’t even know how,
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but that led to an entirely new career,
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you know,
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that led to you exploring something that changed your life,
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at least,
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you know,
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obviously in some way,
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right?
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Yeah, for sure.
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Yeah, for sure.
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I think that,
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you know,
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as you grown up,
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you start to discovering that when you do what you love,
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you are not longer working.
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You are not longer starting a business.
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You are no longer.
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You are just moving along with life and trying to embrace the obstacles that you may found at some point.
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But yes, you’re right.
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Technology has been a huge 180 degrees in my career in terms of decision making.
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At some point in my career,
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let’s say 12 years ago,
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I had the opportunity to go straight after I graduate from the university.
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And then I did some other studies more into management.
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And at some point I had that decision in front of me,
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if I wanted to pursue the management type of career,
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or if I pursue and start,
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you know,
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getting better and better into the coding side of the technology.
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And I took the coding part of the technology and I’m not regret about it.
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And I have found different people during my career,
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and I bet you have had these people here also in the podcast who may be from technology,
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jump to management,
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always related with technology.
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But it makes those changes from one side to the other.
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And it’s not a black and white situation,
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but it clear my mind to learn to listen your heart and things will eventually work forward.
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If you love what you do, you trust what you do and you are
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in the same path of what you say,
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what you think and what you are doing and pursuing in terms with effort and being
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diligent with all the process along with.
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So yeah, definitely I’m really grateful for technology.
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Uh, my other passion is music and somehow those things eventually intersect later.
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I’m going to speak why those things got intersected at some point along with it conferences.
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And as of today, I’m really happy and really grateful for, for that too.
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Okay.
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The more you talk, the more questions I have, actually.
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It’s really interesting.
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So, first of all, we have to thank your father, okay?
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Because he had the insight to say, okay, well, this might be something here.
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So, thanks to dad on that one.
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And you also mentioned that you’re an Apache committer.
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And so, that’s what I wanted to get into a little bit about.
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contributions to open source in general.
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We’ll speak about Java specifically, but just the larger concept.
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I mean,
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Java is obviously an open source project,
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a very large open source project,
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a huge,
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huge community.
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But I mean, ultimately, at its core, it’s an essence.
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It’s an open source project.
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There are many, many projects out there, open source projects.
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And so how did you get involved in open source?
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How and why did you get involved with open source?
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Sure, sure.
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That’s a really good question, Jim.
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So I recall I was at university when I started to get more and more aware of this open source.
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I started as a philosophy and I think most of the people I have talked with nowadays,
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they’re not getting the same approach maybe we got at the end of the 90s when we
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were aware of this philosophy of share,
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you know,
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green fields with everyone sharing the source code and modifying and just using it
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without paying anything to anyone,
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right?
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But nowadays,
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people are more using open source as something that is already baked into whatever
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you use on your daily basis.
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It could be your cell phone,
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It could be your smartwatch and so on and so forth.
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So I recall that at the university,
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I started to get more involved into the into the Linux operating system.
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I start to get in a feel of what open source actually means being part of a community.
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So at the university,
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I start joining the Gen2 community,
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but not officially by a mailing list,
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but attending to workshops and attending to some sessions that some students or
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also already graduate people went to the university to deliver.
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That was like my first approach.
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I recall also Sun Microsystem
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came to Guatemala a couple of times at the university and they were talking about
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Java back then,
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beginning of the 2000s.
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That’s how I get involved with it.
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Then the actual first step that I recall that gave me the opportunity to start contributing.
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And then I go back to my saying, right?
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We first learn and I started to learn all that ecosystem,
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the people meeting every month in a place to discuss about tips and tricks and stuff,
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how to install Gen2 and so on and so forth.
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But then I gave the step to join the Guatemala Java user group.
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And I recall that in my first session, I met one of my coworkers at the time.
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I was already out of the university and he was delivering a topic.
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And at the end of the session,
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they invited anyone from the crowd to say,
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hey,
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if you want to be the next guy to be or the next girl to be here explaining
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something to us,
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feel free to just send an email.
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And long story short, I was there the next month.
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explaining something that I was learning.
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Maybe I,
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I,
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I,
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at some point I,
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I,
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I wasn’t,
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uh,
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I recall it was Maven,
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I recall,
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uh,
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technology,
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Apache,
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maybe just a build tool for,
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and much more,
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more than a build tool for me,
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uh,
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Java related projects,
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but to keep it brief,
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that’s how I got that transition from just going there,
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listen to people.
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Okay.
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This is open source.
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Okay.
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I need to subscribe to mailing list up to the point to give them like my first
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contribution back,
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which is me standing in front of,
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uh,
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25 peoples who were expecting to learn more a little bit about open source technology.
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And that’s how I translate, even though at that point I wasn’t an expert.
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I am still nowadays, I’m not considered at all an expert about Maven.
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I have more experience,
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of course,
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but back then I did this introduction to Maven to some people that was the first
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time talking about it.
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And it’s funny because, you know,
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When you start doing that transition, you learn.
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Every time you teach something, you’re learning twice.
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It was that way how I get into the open source.
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And a common question I get is, but you didn’t touch a lot of code.
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And I said, yeah, that’s right.
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But open source is not only the bytecodes in Java.
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It’s not only the ones and the zeros.
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There are so many things around the open source community that makes that a community.
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And just before the pandemic, I spent like…
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three years delivering a session.
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I recall I delivered a couple of times at Cloud World.
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I recall I also did the only with DevOps US that has been so far.
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And obviously,
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And then another jokes.
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I’m sorry.
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No, they books.
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No.
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Yeah, they books us.
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Is that what you as the one that only occurred once?
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I don’t recall at this point.
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So long.
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But Fox is in Europe.
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Yeah, that boxes.
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Yeah, there was only one I recall.
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So maybe it’s Dev Nexus.
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I have attended DevNexus.
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I have provided a couple of calls at DevNexus, but yeah, DevOps US was only once.
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I think it was around 2008.
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But going back to my ending sentence on your first question,
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I spent like three years trying to share that with the community that you can start
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from wherever you feel comfortable getting involved into a community.
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You don’t need to be the PhD and master of master of that piece of technology to be
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able to make new contributions.
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I mean, it sounds like you really understood.
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I mean, as soon as you got involved in the community, you really understood.
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Are you really able to see the opportunity of contributing?
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It seems like a lot of people don’t see it initially,
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and they’re maybe a little bit afraid because,
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well,
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you know,
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I don’t know anything.
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I don’t know enough to contribute something.
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And I always explain to people, you don’t have to contribute a new JVM.
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I mean, you can start by just showing up.
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If you even ask the organizers at any user group, I mean, they need people to come.
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If you don’t come,
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physically sit in the room,
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have conversations,
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there is no user group meeting that night.
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I mean, that is in and of itself a contribution.
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Start there, right?
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And then work your way up.
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But it seems that you were able to really see that right away.
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Yeah.
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Yeah,
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and it was really interesting because,
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you know,
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I was on my eight to five work and obviously those sessions with the Java user
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group started around 8 p.m.
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So definitely there is an effort involved.
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And back then,
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I recall I started seeing it as a way to networking,
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too,
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with more peers that were struggling or having another opportunity on how to use
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the technology.
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But also on the networking side of the fence, there was also an opportunity to exchange experience.
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And that’s how I got involved into, I recall, the awareness of Java 1 back in the days.
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By being part of the community, then I started to realize, hey, have you heard about Java 1?
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I recall back then there was the Oracle Technology Network Tour.
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And within that tour, I can’t recall who exactly came and they gave a session.
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I attend the Oracle community too.
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Actually, I also contribute to both communities, the Guatemala Java User Group and the Oracle community.
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Both communities get along together here in Guatemala pretty well.
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So I recall seeing there,
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explaining to me what is this concept of the conferences outside of the Java User Group.
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It gave us the motivation,
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the motivation to,
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along with the job leader back in the days,
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Maria Castillo from Guatemala to start creating like the Java day in Guatemala.
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And that’s from, from where we start back in 2011.
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And also.
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It got me into this curiosity again,
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the curiosity of,
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Hey,
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how this conference are getting organized outside of Guatemala.
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And that bring me back to that date when I was able to attend a Java one conference
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and seeing another side of the community that I haven’t been in exposed so far.
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I recall everyone back in the days, we really, when, when, when we see it and talk, we, we
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start making a lot of new friends that we have something in common.
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And obviously it was the technology,
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but eventually,
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you know,
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you start making life and life friends related,
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not just the technology,
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but also in my case with the music,
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which is something I mentioned earlier earlier,
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and also the love for the community,
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which eventually give us the,
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um,
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the momentum back in those days to start organizing what
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Today is known as J Espanol,
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which is a community like it’s an umbrella community for all the Latin America Java
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user groups.
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That’s how we planted that to be.
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And eventually we move forward in bringing more communities like Mexico, Colombia, Peru.
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And back in those days, because we had back in that day
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the example of what oracle was doing with the otn tour we started to dream to say
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hey let’s gonna have something equivalent but just jvm related content across latin
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america we finally did it obviously with these countries mexico guatemala colombia
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peru ecuador around 2010
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which was a great experience on how something that started like a let’s go to Java 1,
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we met there for the first time and we started seeing what communities,
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awesome communities like the Brazilian community was already doing.
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We learned a lot from Bruno and a lot of the cool guys there, and we were able to replicate that.
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And even up today,
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even though we are not heavily involved anymore into Jota Español as we used to be,
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the events that you’re seeing as J-Conf along Dominican Republic,
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Guatemala,
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Ecuador,
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is that output that was still present,
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even survived the pandemic,
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the J-Conf conference,
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which is something that we tried to enforce to bring together the Latin American
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and Spanish-speaking community about
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JVM related technologies.
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So it’s been really pleasant part,
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something that I started able to speak in front of people and then enable more
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people to do the same is something that feels really,
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really cool,
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really,
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really awesome.
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And it’s not only me,
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it’s a community behind,
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obviously,
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that back in those days were part of the movement.
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So what was it about Java specifically that attracted you?
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Was it the community or the technology or just the whole thing together?
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The whole thing.
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The whole thing.
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There is no open source without community.
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And if there is an open source project without community,
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the project is depending on one,
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two persons,
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and eventually it won’t survive as it has less chances to survive if less people is involved.
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But yeah, both things capture me, not just the technology, not just the community, but the mix of both.
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I recall being able to purchase a book and then get along and talk with the writer
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about it,
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give my experience and let that channel open for next year and also on the mailing
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list and so on and so forth.
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it create back then,
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and now it is still possible obviously,
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but it created for me back then like a playground for making new friends and also
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at the same time sharpen my technical skills directly with the people who were
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creating those projects,
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which is something that
(00:17:58):
Sometimes you don’t see when you just attend first to your local joke.
(00:18:03):
Eventually in that local joke,
(00:18:04):
you don’t know,
(00:18:05):
but people next to you,
(00:18:06):
it may be the creator or principal committer in one of the projects that you’re using.
(00:18:11):
And that’s something really special.
(00:18:13):
I think the Java community has that is always really involved with,
(00:18:17):
and is always,
(00:18:18):
you know,
(00:18:19):
striving forward to the technology changes.
(00:18:21):
And,
(00:18:21):
and,
(00:18:21):
you know,
(00:18:22):
as long as the project go and grow over the years,
(00:18:25):
then they had been really good projects,
(00:18:27):
but eventually.
(00:18:28):
again, if there is no community around the project to start to struggle, if it’s an open source project.
(00:18:33):
And I think Java has had that blessing that,
(00:18:35):
you know,
(00:18:36):
more and more people are always eager to to join despite and I don’t have anything
(00:18:40):
against other technologies,
(00:18:41):
but you know that there were containers,
(00:18:43):
there were many things that have happened since those days in the 90s when when
(00:18:46):
Java started.
(00:18:48):
And as of today, many people still argue that Java is it’s going to be dead by next year.
(00:18:53):
And you know that, you know, you know how this goes, right?
(00:18:56):
Every year is the same, but every year is the numbers show
(00:18:58):
something different it’s it’s had 30 years of continuous engineering development
(00:19:03):
and it’s had 30 years of continuous community development and it’s really
(00:19:09):
remarkable because it’s not just obviously sun started it it wasn’t just sun it was
(00:19:14):
yes and obviously it’s not you know just oracle now it’s the totality
(00:19:19):
of all the individual contributors, as well as the corporate contributors, and the entire market.
(00:19:24):
You said you’ve been into computer science for about 17 years, and Java from early on.
(00:19:31):
You must have really seen a lot of the evolution of Java from engineering technology.
(00:19:40):
Do you have any thoughts about how it has evolved over the years?
(00:19:45):
For me,
(00:19:46):
one of the things that keeping aside the newest and latest,
(00:19:51):
you know,
(00:19:51):
upcoming newer features of the language that I bet you have had plenty of people in
(00:19:58):
the podcast.
(00:19:59):
I think the challenge I see with that Java has overcome is that because it is stable,
(00:20:05):
there is less necessity to be upgrading.
(00:20:07):
And because when we talk more than when we say more than a language,
(00:20:12):
but we start talking about the platform,
(00:20:14):
it becomes even more interesting.
(00:20:16):
You know, I am also part of the Jakarta project and MicroProfile.
(00:20:22):
And even when MicroProfile was introduced to provide
(00:20:27):
a little bit more of cloud native and microservices back in that day features to
(00:20:32):
the platform as a whole.
(00:20:34):
Still nowadays,
(00:20:35):
there is still people talking about XML web services and you say,
(00:20:39):
wow,
(00:20:40):
but that’s really old and huge banks and
(00:20:45):
Stock Exchange, they are going to reply you, yeah, but we are still working with that because it works.
(00:20:50):
It’s secure.
(00:20:52):
And I think that that’s one of the biggest advantages and challenges at the same
(00:20:57):
time that the platform,
(00:20:59):
Java platform as a whole,
(00:21:00):
has been carrying.
(00:21:02):
People, you know, you know the dilemma about the Java 8
(00:21:06):
How many people is still using Java 8?
(00:21:08):
With Jakarta IE,
(00:21:10):
we released a yearly survey from which you can see the trends in terms of the
(00:21:17):
adoption of new version of Java.
(00:21:20):
We are moving forward.
(00:21:21):
When I say we,
(00:21:22):
I’m not just talking about the people who develop,
(00:21:24):
but also the people who consume the technology.
(00:21:28):
I think a breakout change obviously was starting now having more frequently releases of Java.
(00:21:35):
That is something that definitely changed a bit the rules of the game.
(00:21:39):
At the beginning,
(00:21:40):
it was the users who were trying to get a little bit more faster their hands on
(00:21:46):
something that they can use.
(00:21:47):
But at the same time,
(00:21:48):
it creates,
(00:21:50):
even though with continuous integration,
(00:21:52):
delivery and security and DevOps
(00:21:55):
and whatever you may hear now is the tendency.
(00:21:59):
Still,
(00:21:59):
there is a challenge in that even though,
(00:22:02):
yes,
(00:22:02):
we have a faster pace from the Java releases,
(00:22:06):
that means that you as a corporate or as an entrepreneur,
(00:22:10):
you will need to have a greater pace to keep on that train too.
(00:22:16):
And I think that we are in the point that we
(00:22:18):
Both the producers and the consumers of Java technology are in a situation where we
(00:22:23):
are getting used to it,
(00:22:25):
to this new phase of faster deliveries,
(00:22:27):
faster innovation every every six months.
(00:22:30):
And at the same time, you know, trying to cope with things like security on the open source, which is
(00:22:35):
something that,
(00:22:36):
you know,
(00:22:37):
since Look for Shell,
(00:22:38):
I think it came to remind us that open source doesn’t mean free 100%.
(00:22:41):
There is a responsibility for us as users who use open source to also be aware and
(00:22:48):
be part that there is an ecosystem.
(00:22:50):
And Java is the same, right?
(00:22:52):
I think Java is the same in the sense that we need to be part is not just waiting
(00:22:56):
for new releases to come.
(00:22:59):
We also can just knock the door and
(00:23:02):
send an email to the Jakarta email list,
(00:23:04):
micro file mail list,
(00:23:06):
the different Java open source projects to get a little bit of what are the insights,
(00:23:11):
how can I help,
(00:23:12):
as I always say,
(00:23:13):
to fully realize that all those innovating new features and how the platform has
(00:23:17):
been involved,
(00:23:18):
it also depends on us,
(00:23:19):
not just the gurus that we think that are sitting in an isolated room,
(00:23:24):
you know,
(00:23:26):
10 feet below the ground trying to understand the next release.
(00:23:29):
It’s not how that works.
(00:23:32):
I like how the OpenJDK is open.
(00:23:34):
I mean,
(00:23:35):
everything’s there on the website,
(00:23:36):
all the development processes,
(00:23:38):
all the code on GitHub and everything’s there and people are interacting.
(00:23:42):
Large number of mailing lists that are very active.
(00:23:44):
There’s a lot of dynamic engineering conversations.
(00:23:49):
I used to work at Sun.
(00:23:50):
I used to be on the OpenSolaris project and
(00:23:53):
I used to really like just observing how engineers talk to each other,
(00:23:58):
how they solve problems,
(00:23:59):
how they propose new projects,
(00:24:01):
how they argue and debate.
(00:24:03):
I always found that very fascinating.
(00:24:05):
And sometimes I’ll take a peek onto the OpenJDK mailing lists and just…
(00:24:08):
Because it’s a reminder of me what the old Solaris conversations were like, because they sound the same.
(00:24:14):
And in terms of the characterization of how they comport themselves,
(00:24:19):
it’s fascinating to me the thinking process that engineers use to create technology
(00:24:25):
or to solve problems,
(00:24:27):
things like that.
(00:24:28):
Do you have any,
(00:24:29):
in terms of the technology,
(00:24:30):
do you have any sort of favorite or interesting bits that you use frequently that
(00:24:36):
you’re very appreciative of?
(00:24:38):
Things that are really valuable to you in terms of the technology and your job or
(00:24:42):
your day-to-day or your teaching or whatever you are doing with the technology?
(00:24:47):
Yeah,
(00:24:47):
I think that nowadays I have been more involved into the security side of the fence
(00:24:53):
for the open source.
(00:24:54):
At TomyDrive,
(00:24:56):
we are always aware of,
(00:24:58):
obviously for the project Apache Tomy,
(00:25:00):
you know,
(00:25:01):
and being a committer also within that project,
(00:25:03):
we are more and more aware of how things have been evolving in terms of how to be prepared,
(00:25:11):
how to address,
(00:25:12):
how to monitor,
(00:25:13):
how to
(00:25:14):
try to communicate again that the security in the open source is part of that
(00:25:20):
backbone that we were discussing previously.
(00:25:22):
I’m really happy to see that more people are getting more and more into…
(00:25:29):
If we want to put a tag to the concept,
(00:25:31):
let’s talk about DevSecUp instead of DevOps,
(00:25:33):
DevSec,
(00:25:35):
you know?
(00:25:35):
for adding security to the DevOps.
(00:25:37):
I don’t know what is going on,
(00:25:39):
what is the next new term after DevSec,
(00:25:42):
but more people is,
(00:25:44):
you know,
(00:25:45):
getting more maturity.
(00:25:47):
And this is globally,
(00:25:48):
not just in Central America,
(00:25:50):
not just in America,
(00:25:51):
it’s globally that open source is our responsibility to be used and our
(00:25:56):
responsibility to be part of the community involves that security as with any
(00:26:01):
software in the world.
(00:26:03):
Things may have some issues at some point,
(00:26:06):
but it’s part of the community how to reply,
(00:26:08):
response,
(00:26:09):
and how prepared to that risk to be removed.
(00:26:14):
This is something that I am being part of,
(00:26:17):
and every time when I go back to conference and I start talking with people,
(00:26:21):
more and more people are aware of the security.
(00:26:23):
they say something,
(00:26:24):
okay,
(00:26:24):
these are the new things on Apache Tummy,
(00:26:26):
on Apache Tomcat,
(00:26:27):
this is really cool.
(00:26:29):
And what about security is like the next question.
(00:26:32):
So I think that that is that is something that has been really gratifying for me.
(00:26:35):
You know, the CVE dilemma, as I like to call it, is a
(00:26:40):
whole concept on its own.
(00:26:42):
There are plenty of tools,
(00:26:44):
companies,
(00:26:45):
projects that work around it,
(00:26:48):
along with continuous integration and so on and so forth.
(00:26:51):
But everything starts with the understanding that open source also has
(00:26:55):
responsibility in terms of security and
(00:26:57):
And if a CTO is aware of that,
(00:27:01):
then things are going to run more smoothly in terms of,
(00:27:05):
you know,
(00:27:05):
making the services that that company,
(00:27:07):
that bank,
(00:27:08):
that application,
(00:27:09):
that system delivered to their final users.
(00:27:12):
So,
(00:27:13):
yeah,
(00:27:13):
security definitely has been something from from the technology that I had been
(00:27:17):
really pleased to work is challenging,
(00:27:19):
but it’s really fun.
(00:27:21):
Yeah, absolutely.
(00:27:22):
You mentioned earlier that you used to teach.
(00:27:25):
Did you teach Java or just computer science in general?
(00:27:28):
I used to teach at one university here in Guatemala.
(00:27:32):
I was a university professor for three and a half years,
(00:27:36):
and I teach both computer science,
(00:27:39):
algorithms,
(00:27:40):
generic algorithms,
(00:27:41):
you know.
(00:27:42):
But I also was in charge of delivering the course that gave introduction to object-oriented programming.
(00:27:49):
and obviously for that de facto was to use java as the language and then for the
(00:27:54):
courses that were related with the last term for people who were just just about to
(00:27:59):
to finish the career they have to make a project and they have the option to use
(00:28:03):
whatever language they had and i was the one who
(00:28:05):
who were their mentor when the group of students decided to use Java.
(00:28:10):
And I was busy back then,
(00:28:11):
so a lot of people used Java as the platform and the technology to build their
(00:28:17):
final projects of the university.
(00:28:19):
So I’m interested to hear what was it like teaching students Java?
(00:28:24):
It was awesome.
(00:28:26):
I discovered eventually that I like to teach because it keeps me motivated to keep
(00:28:32):
learning more and more.
(00:28:33):
And when you are teaching,
(00:28:36):
there is always a student who’s raised their hand and say,
(00:28:38):
Hey,
(00:28:38):
why don’t we don’t do this in Node.js?
(00:28:40):
This is faster in code.
(00:28:43):
This is two lines.
(00:28:44):
I bet that nowadays someone will tell me like,
(00:28:46):
hey,
(00:28:47):
but why we don’t use ChatGPT and let ChatGPT to decide what technology we’re going
(00:28:51):
to use for this project,
(00:28:52):
right?
(00:28:52):
Those kind of questions you don’t get often when you’re not in an education environment.
(00:28:58):
like an university.
(00:29:00):
So yeah,
(00:29:01):
it was really fun,
(00:29:02):
you know,
(00:29:04):
being surrounded with young people gives you energy to keep learning new things,
(00:29:08):
to keep providing and searching for those answers that sometimes the question
(00:29:14):
usually on your fight to your weekly work,
(00:29:17):
you don’t
(00:29:18):
get those type of questions.
(00:29:19):
So yeah, I really enjoyed that, those three and a half years.
(00:29:23):
And I’m really grateful for being part of working at Mariano University here in Guatemala,
(00:29:28):
teaching Java and computer science.
(00:29:30):
So did the students back then,
(00:29:31):
did they understand that software,
(00:29:34):
or at least open source software,
(00:29:35):
is something that you can contribute to?
(00:29:37):
It’s not simply something that you learn and use in a job, but that you can contribute back?
(00:29:43):
Did they understand that concept?
(00:29:45):
Yeah,
(00:29:45):
at the end of those three years,
(00:29:47):
some group of former students and current students,
(00:29:50):
they actually form,
(00:29:51):
they didn’t call it a Java user group.
(00:29:53):
They call it an open source group, working group.
(00:29:56):
So they create their own community and then they organize.
(00:29:59):
I recall two years after I left university,
(00:30:01):
they invited me to give a session because they organized a session
(00:30:05):
back in Jalapa, which is a department from Guatemala where I went to teach.
(00:30:10):
And yeah,
(00:30:10):
that was part of,
(00:30:11):
you know,
(00:30:12):
even though it wasn’t part of the curriculum,
(00:30:14):
you know,
(00:30:15):
talk about the community,
(00:30:17):
you know,
(00:30:17):
always after the semester finishes,
(00:30:21):
we always have the opportunity to chat,
(00:30:22):
to give some sessions.
(00:30:24):
And I will always do the open source topic as one of the optional lectures they can
(00:30:29):
attend after each end of semester.
(00:30:31):
And from there,
(00:30:32):
many people up today,
(00:30:34):
I have been working with some of them when I get back into the communities from
(00:30:38):
time to time.
(00:30:39):
And we have this conversation face to face about what they’re currently doing with their careers.
(00:30:44):
That’s so important, especially for students.
(00:30:46):
I was in Vietnam in April for a very large conference, you know, FOSS Asia.
(00:30:51):
It’s actually this shirt I have on right now.
(00:30:54):
And 5,000 people were there, but like 4,000 of them were students.
(00:31:00):
It was the largest group of students I’ve ever interacted with.
(00:31:06):
And I did a couple of sessions there, a lot of hallway conversations.
(00:31:10):
And they were so young.
(00:31:11):
It was just incredible, really.
(00:31:13):
It was amazing.
(00:31:15):
And actually,
(00:31:17):
I made this very point to them that when you learn,
(00:31:20):
some technologies will be harder than others.
(00:31:22):
And that’s a good thing.
(00:31:23):
You should…
(00:31:24):
seek out to learn the harder ones.
(00:31:26):
Some things will be easy, some things will be hard, but in the harder ones is real true value.
(00:31:33):
And so just stick with it and to also understand that each one of these technologies,
(00:31:38):
many of them now are open source and they have communities around them and you can
(00:31:42):
join user groups and you can contribute something back to that community and
(00:31:47):
certainly to the technology as well.
(00:31:49):
And that places you and your career in the future in a tremendously strong position.
(00:31:55):
And so some of them were aware of this, but some of them weren’t.
(00:31:58):
And they were, oh, really, I can do that?
(00:32:00):
I said, yeah, you can.
(00:32:01):
And while you’re in school, you can develop a portfolio of work.
(00:32:06):
of contributions,
(00:32:07):
interactions,
(00:32:07):
you have a network,
(00:32:08):
you basically create your own network,
(00:32:10):
your human network.
(00:32:12):
You know,
(00:32:12):
when you’re a senior,
(00:32:13):
start looking for a job,
(00:32:14):
all of a sudden,
(00:32:14):
you know,
(00:32:15):
there’s a lot to do,
(00:32:16):
right?
(00:32:17):
You know,
(00:32:17):
so if you start early on and start contributing and contributing to the user groups,
(00:32:21):
you already have,
(00:32:22):
you’ve already had the interview experience,
(00:32:24):
you have the contribution experience,
(00:32:26):
you have the portfolio,
(00:32:27):
you have the code integrations or whatever you’ve done,
(00:32:29):
and you can show that in real interviews.
(00:32:32):
So it was really cool.
(00:32:33):
I like hanging out with students because they have a very different perspective,
(00:32:36):
obviously,
(00:32:37):
because they’re so much younger.
(00:32:38):
They just a different world to them.
(00:32:40):
So what they don’t realize is they teach as much as as they learning.
(00:32:44):
Their perspective is also a teaching mechanism that I value, you know.
(00:32:49):
So yeah, yeah, for sure.
(00:32:51):
And that provides to them and for both students or people who is already on their
(00:32:58):
careers to have a more bold profile for what they are doing with the technology
(00:33:04):
from and what they are learning from the open source to write.
(00:33:08):
I recall that within the Tommy project,
(00:33:10):
there was a couple of sessions that we made for Latin America communities.
(00:33:16):
that we organized a Saturday,
(00:33:18):
I recall,
(00:33:19):
we got into the session to invite David Blemens,
(00:33:23):
who is one of the creators of Apache Tomy.
(00:33:27):
And the whole session,
(00:33:29):
the whole two and a half hours was around how you can create your first PR to
(00:33:34):
contribute to Apache Tomy.
(00:33:35):
And we got people from Dominican Republic, Colombia, Chile, you name it, Mexico, Guatemala.
(00:33:41):
joining that session and they start doing in those two and a half hours.
(00:33:46):
And I will say like from maybe 50 people,
(00:33:49):
50 people we had that day,
(00:33:51):
six months later,
(00:33:52):
five or four people were already part of the people who are pushing code into the project.
(00:33:59):
So sometimes,
(00:34:00):
as you mentioned,
(00:34:01):
with the experience you had with these students,
(00:34:03):
people already have the skills that can be used to collaborate in some open source
(00:34:09):
project or technology,
(00:34:11):
but they don’t know yet because they haven’t got the chance to interact with people
(00:34:15):
and the community that can tell you,
(00:34:17):
hey,
(00:34:17):
Jim,
(00:34:18):
you are really good.
(00:34:19):
You like to build a lot of Jenkins pipelines.
(00:34:21):
Hey, why can’t you come and help us to automate or improve our CI pipeline here in this project?
(00:34:27):
And you will never knew about it if you don’t get into that situation where you
(00:34:32):
have the opportunity to chat with the community and get along with.
(00:34:36):
Yeah, excellent.
(00:34:37):
So where does music fit into this?
(00:34:40):
Yeah, that’s really, that’s awesome.
(00:34:42):
So the thing is that I was really into what we call in Latin America, into soccer.
(00:34:50):
And then I had to decide if I continue to study or I continue with sports.
(00:34:54):
So I continue with the studies and I went to university.
(00:34:58):
And something that really helped me to,
(00:35:00):
you know,
(00:35:00):
to relax and try to cope a little bit,
(00:35:03):
you know,
(00:35:03):
from the stress that you get when you get into university was learning to play guitar.
(00:35:09):
Long story short.
(00:35:11):
I recall that it was the second time I attended Java 1 and after one of the sessions,
(00:35:16):
I don’t remember who was in charge of the Java program back then,
(00:35:20):
but I recall that I saw Freddy Gimmick running away from the session room with a guitar.
(00:35:29):
And I was like, I saw Frank Gecko and other guys.
(00:35:32):
And I recall,
(00:35:33):
I don’t recall if Ed Burns was at that point part of the band,
(00:35:38):
but I saw that a group of people left the community room and they went to do a rehearsal.
(00:35:44):
So I just follow them and I say, hey, guys, what are you doing?
(00:35:46):
Can I join?
(00:35:47):
Can I watch?
(00:35:48):
And, you know, I have been really into music and, you know, I think music and
(00:35:54):
audio interfaces and all that has something related sometimes so i say to them hey
(00:35:59):
i can help you with the cables and all that kind of stuff connecting the mics and
(00:36:03):
everything and they say okay cool come here help us and they started to rehearse
(00:36:07):
rehearsal long story short there was a break i recall matthias who is also from
(00:36:11):
europe he took a break from the drums and back then i was receiving some drum
(00:36:15):
lessons and there we start jamming there was no drummer and i say hey can i play
(00:36:20):
can i join the community you know the same with code can i join the community yeah
(00:36:24):
yeah this is just a jam uh no story short that night at the jcp party in that week
(00:36:30):
uh i played a couple of songs with them with the new with what what now we know as
(00:36:34):
the new pointers um so that’s that’s that’s how i joined the new pointers
(00:36:40):
and that’s also how again going back i have never i couldn’t imagine that at some
(00:36:46):
point you know my love for technology will put me into a situation which i can make
(00:36:51):
friends that also have a thinking common of creating technology using technology
(00:36:57):
but also loving music and making music and yeah that’s how java technology and the
(00:37:02):
music uh make uh the same path
(00:37:06):
And from there,
(00:37:07):
before the pandemic,
(00:37:07):
I recall we always met yearly either for the JCP party when there was Java 1 and
(00:37:13):
also a couple of,
(00:37:15):
I recall,
(00:37:16):
also Dev Nexus 2.
(00:37:18):
So yeah, that’s how music had evolved during the pandemic, I recall.
(00:37:22):
I put all the raw material, all the video I recorded for those previous five or four years
(00:37:29):
I put it together and we released a video that is available on YouTube.
(00:37:33):
You search for the Null Pointer Java and you will see there a jam we did.
(00:37:38):
And,
(00:37:38):
you know,
(00:37:39):
even though something funny that even though after the rehearsal or after the gig,
(00:37:44):
we were still keep talking about technology,
(00:37:46):
you know,
(00:37:47):
I recall 1 a.m.
(00:37:49):
in the morning conversation with Ed Burns,
(00:37:52):
back then JSF leader at Sun and then at Oracle,
(00:37:57):
playing at the piano with Frank and other guys there and talking about technology.
(00:38:01):
So it was a really great experience.
(00:38:03):
I have had that blessing of having those friendships since then.
(00:38:06):
And who ever knew that
(00:38:09):
working on something you love like in my case technology music will end up going in
(00:38:13):
the same direction and having something in common it’s so cool i mean it’s like an
(00:38:17):
unconference it’s like an unconference when you get together it’s completely
(00:38:21):
informal like the jam session you make up the schedule there everyone everyone you
(00:38:26):
know contributes it’s not just the speakers everyone contributes something just
(00:38:30):
like the jam session
(00:38:32):
And you have your sessions and then maybe you go out to eat or go for a hike or
(00:38:38):
depending on skiing,
(00:38:39):
wherever you are.
(00:38:40):
And all those other activities, just like the jam session, you’re talking about technology.
(00:38:45):
So that is a complete blending.
(00:38:47):
Absolutely true.
(00:38:48):
Yeah.
(00:38:49):
You’ve done so much.
(00:38:50):
I mean, it’s really cool to talk to you.
(00:38:53):
But you also are a Java champion and an Oracle Ace Pro.
(00:38:56):
So it’s like the list goes on for here forever.
(00:39:00):
So tell me a little bit about those two programs.
(00:39:02):
I mean,
(00:39:03):
one is because they’re similar in one respect in the sense of they both require contributions,
(00:39:11):
which is really what I’m into.
(00:39:13):
But they’re also structurally very, very different.
(00:39:15):
So how did you get involved with them?
(00:39:17):
Yeah.
(00:39:18):
So I recall that back in 2016 or 15,
(00:39:22):
I was at Java one and I met a really good friend,
(00:39:24):
Alexis Lopez from Columbia.
(00:39:27):
And we get along each other along with Jose from Peru and other guys from Mexico
(00:39:32):
and other guys from,
(00:39:32):
from the region.
(00:39:33):
But I had this thing in mind, uh, about creating a project back in then.
(00:39:39):
It could be 2014,
(00:39:41):
2015,
(00:39:41):
back in then containers were started to being a thing,
(00:39:45):
but back then I had some issues trying to do the management of Apache Tomcat
(00:39:51):
instances deployed across an enterprise.
(00:39:54):
So I say to Alexis, we discussed back in Java 1 about that challenge.
(00:39:59):
He also had some thoughts about it.
(00:40:02):
And long story short,
(00:40:03):
we developed an open source project called T factory,
(00:40:06):
whose main intention was to in a pretty plain vanilla,
(00:40:11):
straight way to manage Tomcat Apache Tomcat instances.
(00:40:16):
A couple of years later,
(00:40:17):
as we got more involved into the open source and everything,
(00:40:20):
we won a Duke Choice Award at Java 1 Brazil back in that day,
(00:40:25):
in 2016.
(00:40:25):
And it was in that time frame when I got invited into the Java Champion program.
(00:40:32):
We were at that point already promoting JJ Español,
(00:40:37):
Umbrella Community for Latin American Jugs,
(00:40:41):
and also Spain also joined the effort later.
(00:40:45):
later that year, which the project eventually also got traction for more communities.
(00:40:50):
So two things happened in that year.
(00:40:54):
One was my nomination for a Java champion and my invite to the program,
(00:40:59):
and also the Duke Choice Award winning for that open source project.
(00:41:04):
Back then, I was already really involved in open source.
(00:41:08):
I recall also that at some point around 2013,
(00:41:11):
I met Andres Almiray,
(00:41:13):
Annie Schell,
(00:41:14):
and in a hackathon,
(00:41:16):
they explained to me how I can contribute even more.
(00:41:19):
So from there, I started to get more and more involved in the open source.
(00:41:23):
By the time I was three years already playing around with the open source and contributing,
(00:41:28):
was when I was invited to join the Java Champion program.
(00:41:33):
From there, there was a transition from the ACE program into the Groundbreakers.
(00:41:41):
I bet you remember that transition, right?
(00:41:43):
I was on all these teams, yeah.
(00:41:45):
yeah yeah i remember um and i was invited also to that program and eventually we i
(00:41:51):
continued to to doing contributions uh back then i recall i also contributed in
(00:41:55):
some forums the otn had and continued to know you know be present on many
(00:42:01):
conferences around the region latin america and united states talking about breaks
(00:42:06):
like apache tommy micro profile eventually i got a co i started contributing also
(00:42:11):
to micro profile um
(00:42:14):
And lately I joined the Jakarta community.
(00:42:18):
So yeah,
(00:42:19):
it has been a journey of a non-stopping journey from learning and sharing in all
(00:42:24):
the open source.
(00:42:25):
And that led me then to the Oracle ACE program.
(00:42:30):
So yeah,
(00:42:30):
that’s how can I try to summarize 10 years of contribution and learning with not
(00:42:37):
only code,
(00:42:38):
but also with the community aspect of it.
(00:42:41):
Yeah, it’s all contributions.
(00:42:43):
I mean,
(00:42:43):
that’s how you’ve been recognized through all these different programs and the user
(00:42:47):
groups and the JCs and the ACEs and just your colleagues as well.
(00:42:53):
I mean, I’ve recognized you.
(00:42:54):
So that’s really cool.
(00:42:56):
It’s an inspiration for young people.
(00:42:59):
That’s correct.
(00:43:00):
It’s an inspiration for me, too, and I’m a lot older than young people, so…
(00:43:05):
I’m really excited to talk to you and to learn.
(00:43:09):
I learn from these conversations.
(00:43:11):
It’s really,
(00:43:11):
you know,
(00:43:12):
I mean,
(00:43:12):
it’s really,
(00:43:12):
I have a really cool job in the sense of I’m allowed to basically talk to people
(00:43:17):
like you and put a podcast down and it’s a nice thing to do.
(00:43:20):
But I also, just of selfish reasons, I learn from it, you know?
(00:43:24):
So, all right, Cesar, it’s been a great conversation here.
(00:43:27):
Is there anything that we haven’t covered that you want to leave us with?
(00:43:31):
Well,
(00:43:32):
there are many more stories that I can tell in one hour,
(00:43:36):
but basically,
(00:43:38):
I just want to thank you,
(00:43:39):
Jim,
(00:43:40):
for all the effort that you and the team have been putting to assemble this podcast,
(00:43:44):
to bring in more and more friends.
(00:43:46):
to share what they are currently doing, what they have been doing.
(00:43:50):
And again,
(00:43:50):
I think the entire purpose from my point of view is to engage more newcomers into
(00:43:57):
the open source technologies for those who are really seasoned developers to keep working.
(00:44:04):
Your work is appreciated.
(00:44:05):
I think
(00:44:07):
I have found these conversations on and I am sometimes be part also those who
(00:44:12):
request conversations,
(00:44:13):
mailing these conversations when you start,
(00:44:15):
you know,
(00:44:16):
talking maybe the other side of the world with someone who is struggling with the
(00:44:20):
same issue with you.
(00:44:21):
And maybe he was the creator of something and then you want to discuss different approaches.
(00:44:26):
I think that’s really
(00:44:27):
It’s a really playing field when we talk about open source and the Java technology.
(00:44:31):
Therefore,
(00:44:32):
it’s also a playing field to keep evolving and growing and learning and securing
(00:44:37):
our development and architecture.
(00:44:41):
So,
(00:44:41):
yeah,
(00:44:41):
I’m really,
(00:44:42):
really happy to to have the opportunity to talk a little bit about this with you,
(00:44:46):
Jim,
(00:44:46):
and looking forward to keep learning more from from the upcoming guest.
(00:44:51):
And to all the people who want to leave comments and chat about in the next
(00:44:55):
conferences that you may have,
(00:44:57):
either if you will have Jim,
(00:44:59):
myself,
(00:45:00):
Cesar,
(00:45:00):
or anyone else from the podcast,
(00:45:02):
feel free to interact with us.
(00:45:03):
Cool.
(00:45:04):
I can’t top that.
(00:45:05):
Beautiful ending.
(00:45:06):
Thank you very much, my friend.
(00:45:07):
We’ll hopefully see you soon live.
(00:45:09):
I hope so too.
(00:45:10):
Thank you, Jim.